Play it Forward , February 2020: Here MT, Ash Nataanii and Elijah Jalil

Here MT, Ash Nataanii and Elijah Jalil

Play It Forward poster image with Ash Nataanii on the left sitting in snow and Elijah Jalil on the right playing guitar.

KBGA College Radio and the Zootown Arts Community Center (ZACC) have teamed up to bring you 'Play It Forward', a livestream music series and podcast program curated to unite and uplift community artists and organizations in Missoula, sponsored by Rockin Rudy’s. Every last Friday of the month we will partner with a different organization and host a local music livestream (from the ZACC Show Room), with 70% of proceeds going to that month's organization.  In conjunction with the livestream each month, KBGA will run a podcast program on-air featuring interviews with the folks behind the organizations and the artists themselves. Holding dialogue amongst community organizers and creatives, artists and activists  on what community means to them, how they engage in their community and what they would like to see in the community.  

February's Play It Forward features Ash Nataanii, an indie rock heartthrob whose music is as poignantly political as it is spiritual, and Elijah Jalil, who takes a range of genres from folk to hip hop and channels them into social justice. Nataanii and Jalil will be playing in support of HereMT, a BIPOC outdoor program in Missoula (through Missoula Parks and Recreation) that works to give the BIPOC community access to outdoor recreation. The podcast, airing February 13th at 2 P.M.and an extended version February 26th at 1 P.M. features interviews with the folks behind the organizations and the artists themselves. Alex Kim, founder of HereMT, Nataanii and Jalil, discuss representation in their perspective fields, and strike up conversations about what creativity and organization means to them in our community. Then for the livestream music event February 26th at 7:30 P.M. you can  tune in on air or go to the Zootown Arts Community Center’s Facebook page to watch the magic:

https://www.facebook.com/events/225537412583866

Friday // February 26 // 7:30 PM // Free, but please consider donating as 70% of funds received go to support HereMT // Donation link: https://givebutter.com/l4NxDp

VIEWING LINKS
ZACC Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thezacc/
Zootown Arts YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOnxho9v75OZvCJKk0mX_pQ
MCAT Local Live: https://www.mcat.org/watch-now/local-live/

Thanks for tuning in and playing it forward.

FULL EPISODE:

transcript-

*Cheshire Cat, by Ash Nataanii plays* 

Noelle: 

You're listening to KBGA college radio 89.9 Missoula, and we're teaming up with the ZooTown Arts Community Center to bring you Play it Forward, a live stream music series and podcast program curated to unite and uplift community artists and organizations in Missoula. Sponsored by Rockin Rudy's. Every last Friday of the month, we will partner with a different organization and host a local music live stream from the ZACC showroom, with 70% of the proceeds going to that month's organization. In conjunction with a live stream, KBGA will also run a podcast program on air featuring interviews with the folks behind the organization and the artists themselves holding dialogue amongst community organizers and creatives, artists and activists on what community means to them, how they engage in their community and what they would like to see in their community.

 KBGA's Elinor Smith interviews February's play it forward featured artists and the founder of Here Montana, an outdoor program in Missoula through Missoula Parks and Recreation that works to give the black, indigenous, and people of color in our community access to outdoor recreation. Stay tuned for an invigorating discussion on the importance of racial representation. And not just on the macro-level, but on the micro-level, right here in Missoula.

 *Cheshire Cat by Ash Nataanii continues*

Ash: 

My name is Ash Nataanii Cornelius, my pronouns, she/her they/them, I'm fine with. Yeah, I'm just a working-class musician in Missoula. I kind of traveled all over the US doing different things and have a unique perspective on just the indigenous experience of being brown in America. And I use that pretty much as the main palette for all of my music.

Elijah:

My name is Elijah Jalil Paz Fisher. I should have put that in; I should have renamed myself. But yeah, that's, that's my whole name. I use he/him pronouns. And I am getting my MFA in acting at the University of Montana. 

But I also make music, and I just, as I brand myself as a social justice artist, because of reasons I'm sure we'll talk about in this whole thing. But I'm in Missoula for the time being, and I came from California, then Portland. And now I am here.

Alex:

Yes, my name is Alex Kim. And my pronouns are he/him/his. And I work at a couple of different places I work at Power Montana, doing racial justice work, as well as the YWCA. And then, I work at Missoula City Parks and Rec, where I created and facilitated an outdoor group for the bipoc community in Missoula, which is for black, indigenous people of color. 

Yeah, so Here Montana's main purpose is to increase access, and representation of our black, indigenous people of color in our community, to outdoor recreation and the outdoors. And how that kind of got started is I've worked in the outdoor industry for a long time. And I recognize that the outdoors can be like, whatever space that people want it to be. But you know, that space is historically very limited for people, for people of color, who just, you know, whether it be socio economics or culture, or, you know, just have not been able to access that. And so, we created a program where we can get people outside and build a community around that. And so, therefore, we'd be increasing access to the outdoors, increasing the broader community of outdoor recreation. And hopefully, by doing all of that, we can build a better understanding of what equity means and what equality can be. 

Because especially right now, like, you know, social media, we see a lot of people thriving and finding healing in the outdoors. And yet, we forget that like, you know, where we are historically like we sit on Salish Kootenai land, and it's important that our indigenous communities are able to access that land as well. And our communities that are not able to access them due to, Yeah, just access to information, culture again. 

Because, like, for myself, I grew up in Maryland. So like skiing, rafting, cross country skiing, you know, climbing, like none of that was around, I grew up in a city. And so, like, I didn't know really even what it was, honestly. And then I came out here, and I realized that, yeah, it's like dominant culture, like, that's not a culture that I grew up in. And so I have no idea how to find out about that. And then, as an adult, it's even harder to find a community because community is often how we introduce ourselves to these sorts of things.

 Like even in the arts, I do photography. And, you know, that's one way that, you know, you can like meet random people, but I think community is super important. And so that's another aspect of how and why we started. But our like proper mission and vision is, our mission is to engage in power and elevate the bipoc communities and time outside in a safe and informed way, thereby building a bipoc community, outdoor community, and develop outdoor leaders within that community. And the reason that's important as well is because, like, we don't see a lot of leadership in, in, we don't see a lot of representation in leadership or in marketing. And I think that's crucial. Like we use social media every day, or I do at least, and it's nice to be able to see, you know, folks of different backgrounds and ethnicities doing things that I want to do, because that, you know, it perpetuates my own imagination, and it encourages me to get out and do things. And then, our vision is to increase bipoc representation among leadership and participation in outdoor communities to improve bipoc access to opportunities for connection fund and healing and to explore what nature has to provide.

Elijah:

I mean, representation seems like a great place to begin, you know, like, that's the beginning place of representation in leadership. And actually, Alex, I thought of you yesterday, when we had a BSU meeting, and the ASUM sent out like in an email about the ice rink being available to student groups to, you know, reserve, and I brought it up to the BSU members. They're like, well, we don't ice skate, I was like, wait, like, I don't really ice skate either. But I'd be down to do it with you all. You know, I mean, it's terrifying. And I don't want to fall either. But like, I'd be down to fall on the ice with you. Yeah, getting out into the snow is something that I, along with a lot of fellow black people, are like, No, I would not get into the snow, the snow that's like, white on white. That's not for us. I'm not doing that. But I'm intrigued to get into it. Because it's scary. But with people that look like they are also scared, we can do it together. I think so.

Yeah. And, yeah, I think if we were able to, you know, have a community that goes outside before Here Montana, I wasn't even thinking about skiing. But now, I'm planning on going skiing, which is something that's happening like next Saturday, cross country skiing, which is different than downward slope skiing, I've heard. 

So you know, it's terrifying, but that having that leadership, and yeah, just representation in the community is at least where I start. Like the music-- I released an album in September, and it's not music at all that I listened to growing up because I worked with the Bluegrass musician. And I was like, What is bluegrass, but we came together and made this thing that, that I mean, just like, bounces between genres of like folk and country and bluegrass and r&b and a bunch of other things that, I think is a way to, like, take back the genres that started most often within the, you know, the bipoc communities. So representation. Yeah,

Alex:

Definitely. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just building community, especially in a place where like, community feels really, disperse. Especially even more so now, with the pandemic, and just having to, yeah, just like not being able to see one another, like, walking around or whatever is often. 

And so I think the biggest thing that it's doing is just creating a community of people like, and, and, you know, it's like, it would be like, if I could make a Country Club for communities of color, I would do that. But white people have that as well for their communities. And I think that like, you know, although those places may seem very open to diversity and things like that, I think that when we don't acknowledge our race and our ethnicity and our cultures and our differences, you know, we kind of just forced everybody down like this binary road where we're all just trailing on little footsteps that someone left and that's the only way that was the only direction we can go. And I think for Here Montana, it's to break those barriers so that people really do see  that they can be here and do things that they want to do and explore and find peace. 

And like, that's where I find, like, the intersection of music for myself, because I am not at all musically talented, but I'm a consumer of music. And I've just a side note and have always been a fan of Ash’s  music since, like, way back. And it's been really cool to see her like--  and like, now she's dropping an album next week. That's sick!  And like, it's really cool to hear that, you know, and like, I think it just like, I think it just expands everyone's idea of like, who can be where and who can do what, you know what I mean? Like, we can do anything we want to do. But if we don't see that in our own communities on a micro-level, it makes a huge difference. 

Because it's like, yes, I see Korean Americans who make it big, like they're in Hollywood. You know, you see them in K-Pop, and things like that. But that's like, macro-level, like, big time, like, you know, they're the few that are out there. But on a micro-community level, we really don't see that as often. You know what I mean? 

Like, with Elijah making, you know, like music with bluegrass, like, That's such a beautiful intersection, like, especially in Montana, like, how did that even come about? You know, and to see it on that micro-level, like in your community, I think makes a greater impact to I mean, I think, like-- I think on a big scale, like, obviously, Hollywood impacts me to an extent, you know, like, I want to be fly and like, know what's going on. 

But in a community like myself as an individual, like, I want to see my own community thrive, and the people that I know, in my community thriving, because that makes more of a difference to me. Because like, I could probably walk over to, like, meet, you know, Ash and Elijah, and you know, whoever, like right down the road, you know. And I think knowing that Here Montana is a program and a resource for people to find community, like, here and not, you know, like, somewhere really far away it, it can make a difference in that way, much like the music scene, like, you know, there's like huge big bands and they turn around, but like, nothing beats like local music, or like sitting in someone's garage listening to, like, music is just something about being in this community that gives people a connection, I guess. Yeah.

Elinor:

Yeah, definitely. I was kind of wondering kind of the role of leadership obviously is so so important, like crucial for bipoc representation in Montana, and around the country. And I was just wondering what you guys think leadership and innovation in both the outdoor communities and in the music community in Montana would look like and how people can kind of strive to take those roles moving on in the future?

Ash:

So I'm not sure if I totally understand that question correctly. But I would say if I understand it correctly, then I would say that's kind of a two-part thing because there are plenty of people who are of color who are definitely leaders who exist here already, who also have a really powerful voice. 

I'd say more so the question is, like, when is it that white people are going to understand that they need to make room for colored leadership? It's not necessarily up to us to have to force our way in and fight into every single place that we can inhabit. It needs to be created for us, by our allies, and by the people who actually care and are learning what color means and what their interaction with color is supposed to be. And how we all inhabit the same place and, and basically come together in that and yeah, because I mean, I like I've had to, I've had to face that through multiple, multiple places in my life where I've been put in situations where someone's challenged me and like, you know, you're, you're so close to being a leader, you're so influential and stuff, if only you could like just buckle down and like press a little bit harder, not realizing that what they were telling me was always going to be a pipe dream because they only respected whiteness. 

And as a person of color who saw that consistently, I believed what they said when I was younger. But the older I got, the more I realized that that benchmark was impossible to meet because they wouldn't see past my color. And it didn't matter how influential I was, it didn't matter how powerful my voice was. It didn't matter whether I brought them tears. It didn't matter whether I shook them into the grave. It never was going to be enough unless they were going to make room for me. Unless they're going to understand what their position was in order to be led. White has to take the backseat in a lot of circumstances in order for, you know, colored leadership to exist. We're here. We're around. It's, you know, I think the question has less to do with us as much as it has to do with y'all. And I don't mean that indelicately, it's I mean that with as much respect as I can, but yeah, that's the way I see it as far as it is right now.

Elijah:

Yeah, I'm not sure I can put it much better than that. But I mean, I agree. I agree with the fact that there are leaders that look like us that exist in the community already. It's just whether or not they are getting the platform, you know. And it's, I think it's gotten to a point now with, like, all of the injustices that have been going on throughout 2020, and still happening right now is we're getting the platform.

But now it's like, 0kay well, how do we do something now, you know? How do we plan programming that is going to allow for, you know, bipoc, professors to want to come to Montana? Because I can, I can't imagine that there are many that are like, Oh, let me go to Montana and be a part of this faculty that does not look like me.

And what they-- what I've heard is, you know, because I was a part of one of the hiring procedures, like, there's nobody coming out here. It's like, they don't, they don't reach out. Like, well, what, why do you think they don't come to Montana? And when they do, they are usually here for like, a year, and then they're out, you know, because it's, it's in the system to like, not really let you in. It's like the doors kind of open, and you can peek your head through the crack, and then they close it again, no, try, we're gonna try another person. 

And if you don't do something spectacular-- it's like, the bar is much higher for bipoc people. Really anything. And it's I mean, people are meeting the bar, and then they're like, actually, the bars right there, and then you meet the bar. And then you meet, and it just keeps on rising. And the expectations just keep on coming. And not that I mean, I think that many people are capable of meeting those expectations, for sure. But how many times do we have to prove that we are worthy, you know, of being in charge? And? Yeah, yeah.

Alex:

Yeah, I don't know if I can. I can't even explain it the way. Yeah, Elijah. I think both folks have explained that so well, like, but first acknowledging for me, I think it's, yeah, just acknowledging that that leadership has always been here. And those folks have always been around well, before me, after me, whatever it is, you know, beyond me as an individual. 

Like, I think it just understands that, that there's a system that's in place, and whether or not we want to participate in that system or not. That's the dominant system. And so like, that's just like how it is at the moment. And in that sense, and like, I think it really does boil down to folks, just understanding that their culture and their way of living is, is different than other people. And if, like, what allows us to get that bar is here.

 And, you know, people of color, like-- Okay, I'm gonna change my culture, and the way that I even understand, like, the world that I'm living in, just to meet that bar to say, like, oh, okay, like, you know, like, if it's hair standards, or, you know, or, you know, body standards or identity standards, you know. 

It's like, the bar is here. Okay, you know what, I want to reach that position. So, I'm going to give in to this system that's in place because forcing me to do that. And like I said, the bar just gets like, a little bit higher. And I think that is really just; You have power and privilege, like the people that are in power, obviously, want to stay in power. And, you know, that's just I think that's an unfortunate thing. But it's like, how do we, as a community of people, like change that, you know, I think that it really does with power and privilege is like, the people in power and privilege to take responsibility and to acknowledge that there are people that are just as capable of sitting in those positions and of giving out those opportunities when they can. But I think a lot of it has been just diving into, like, for me at least understanding dominant culture versus really any other minority culture and how that affects places of power. Yeah.

Elijah: 

Yeah. And in an attempt to offer a solution, I want to focus on something Alex, and I think it previously just about like, micro versus macro communities, right? Because this issue is so big, it's humongous and daunting, right? Because it's a lot to take in all at once. There are terms being thrown around that people like what? What does that even mean? And also, I mean, the word racist is really strong these days, and white people necessarily don't like to hear it. Nobody really likes hearing it. But I feel like nobody likes hearing it more than white people-- or hates hearing it more. There it is. 

But one thing we can focus on, I think, is really fixing what we are not fixing, but like changing the micro-community that is here, you know what I mean? So like, if the University of Montana were to start within the University of Montana and not be so worried about like, every, I mean, be worried about what's going on in the world, but also put the energy into changing what's happening on the University of Montana campus, and then even further, like, the Missoula community as well, I'm not like really deep into the Missoula community, because I'm focused on school, but I think there are ways to focus on the micro right now that people are afraid of, you know.

Elinor:

I was kind of wondering, kind of, if you were to go back in time and kind of talk to yourself or a younger member of the bipoc community in Missoula, how would you tell them to navigate or yourself to navigate like the racial and social inequity that's seen in Missoula? It's kind of an insurmountable issue, I guess, to like, look at kind of the way it feels. Do you have any advice that you would tell kind of your past self where you tell a younger member of the community?

Ash:

You know that's, that's kind of a wake-up and choose violence type of question. That's Yeah. I mean, that's like, yeah, I mean, that's, that's asking that you know, the very classic question of like, what do you regret kind of thing, too? I mean, like, it's just, there's a lot. And, and, and I think that too, to ask that question, in particular, too, is like, how would you change? Like, how do you approach that? Or how did you phrase it again? 

Elinor:

Um, if you had any advice for like, your younger self, or a younger member in the community on like, trials of facing, facing, like social inequity, in Missoula, or in other communities? Do you have anything that you would say about, like, kind of facing that issue?

Ash:

Yeah. God, I mean, there's so many, there are so many different ways in which to approach that, I mean, because, like, first we face it from like, yeah, like the social level, but then that social level also interacts with how we perceive ourselves. So then we have to deal with the individual levels. 

So I mean, there's a lot of, there's a complication, and it's Turtles all the Way Down kind of thing, you know, and I think, if I was going to give any type of advice to a former self, like, I think it would be, you know, you know, everything has to start somewhere within. 

So I think that education is probably the biggest, like the biggest place to start. And not to maybe be it and be as trusting as people as I like to be. And that's, I know, that sounds negative. But I mean, if you're brown and or if you're, I mean, if you're colored, and you're up here, and you're up here long term, I think there is a natural hazard of being a little too trusting of where you're at—and not necessarily knowing how to watch your back. Because there's a lot of really, really great people up here. And there's, it's an amazing community, and I don't mean to, like, sidestep that, but, you know, it's still also it's, it's still also really intense. And I think that the tendency is to forget that we are also in a very right-wing area. And, you know, the social disparity that I've kind of been lured into here, and they're in kind of, like, good standing.  I would say, like, you know, education would have been a lot of them to go to, to help me avoid that.

Alex:

I think for me, I mean, education is huge, like, and I grew up, like, I feel like, for myself, I grew up very in a duel with myself like, Am I a Korean American? Or am I like, just, or like-- Where do I need to fit in and whom do I need to be where? So it's in that's always been some it's like identity, I guess, identity like an identity crisis. 

And I think I could give myself advice. It's kind of like what Ash was saying and just educating myself on my own culture and accepting that, that, like, my culture is different from the dominant culture. But it's okay to function in some sort of duality on a daily basis. In like finding that identity, and then also being able to navigate, like the world that we're in, in particular, in Montana, like, there isn't a lot. I mean, I just don't really know of any Korean communities that are, you know, a place of Korean culture. And so, when I do bring those things up, it kind of like, hits this wall of like, you know, Montana culture and, and that conflict to me is like, well, I can fit into the Montana culture, to an extent outside of my, like, physical appearance, but the Montana culture doesn't fit into my Korean culture. And I can't like force, either one to be either way. And so it's just like, yeah, like, I think if I had better educated myself about my own ethnicity, and, and then like, took some time to really like, learn about my own identity and how I identity in, in a space where I'm not the majority in a space that may not understand where I'm coming from. I think as she was saying earlier, like, yeah, if you just don't, you just might not know, like, you know, and that's okay. And when I first came to Montana, I did not know what Montana culture was at no idea what, like, Whoa, this is, this is out there, you know, like, and I didn't know how to handle that. And I think that was something that just kind of comes with, like learning about my own identity and sorting through that.

Elijah:

Yeah,yeah. Both of you are touching on that. I mean, I think like the duality that you mentioned, Alex is, is something that I don't think I was really trying, I couldn't comprehend, or nobody had even brought to my attention. When I was younger, I was like, I need to be one thing. And what people saw was that I was black. And I was like, all right, I guess I'm black and everybody else. Because I'm from California, I feel like I wasn't really worried about, you know, who was around me as much. And being in the Bay Area is really, I mean, a large, at least in the community that I was in, it was like everybody was mixed, you know, and I'm black and Filipino. So like, everybody had to look like me, or they didn't look like me because they were mixed with something else. 

And coming up here--Granted, I've only been here for three years, I've felt most free since the pandemic has started because I've gotten the opportunity to be around less white people. And that is just how it's been. And when people said, Go inside, I went outside. And I was like, well, this land, this land is beautiful. And there's nobody out here to appreciate it anymore because we're all inside. But I was able to enjoy it on my own. 

And I think I would if I were to, like, talk to myself when I was younger. And if I would have come out here, when I was younger, I'd be like, hey, first off, be careful. But second, like, explore, explore the land more, because, and explore yourself more, because I told myself that I wasn't creative. And now I'm like, so emotional. And so, just like expressive all the time. And like, working on not yelling, but also wanting to yell all the time. And some, I think the thing that's been leading me through my life is optimism.

 I think that that comes from a place of privilege. I feel like I've been protected a lot of my life. And I've also been in school since I was five, I'm still not out of it. I'm still not out of it. But I'm learning. I'm learning, and I'm grateful for the fact that I can learn, but I wish that somebody had been teaching me that one. I can be creative, too, that I belong in like the theatre, arts community. And that there, like I, can be a leader in that. Because if I would have known from an early age, I would have more skills and feel less insecure about where I am as an artist. And while I am growing, I recognize the growth from where I was to where I am. I still also recognize how much further I could have gone. If I was introduced into these things earlier that have brought me so much joy, then I'd probably be more of a force. Not that I feel like I'm still growing. You know what I mean? But I just want to change the world is really what I want to do. And I think recognizing that I can't do that alone is also another thing that I had to come to terms with as this pandemic hit. I was like, Oh, I need I can't-- I'm so tired. But I need help. But who do I reach out to? How does one build a community in a pandemic? And I think they're, and we're figuring it out.

 And also, hopefully, it'll be, you know, we'll be able to be more in person because there's nothing that can replace that, you know. But yeah, there's a lot of things I would tell myself is like, just, but I think the biggest thing would be to know, there's just a lot of things, but believe in oneself, you know, that you can do anything, but also, like, be careful at the same time, it's, just be aware, be aware, that's what it is aware of the things that are around you. Because if you're not aware, somebody else is, I guarantee you, somebody else is.

Alex:

So I mean, for me, I think a big vision is just seeing more representation, seeing brown people and black people and Asian people and Latin-X people, anybody in everybody just outside doing things. And it's, and maybe that goes with, like the demographics of growth changing, you know, and we have a lot of things in Missoula that is going on, like the housing crisis, and like, people can't find homes. And so there are a lot of external factors that make it even more difficult to be outdoors. And even more difficult to like, figure out all the logistics of even getting outside. And so I think, you know, starting with empowering folks to feel confident in being outside and like, just getting out there and doing their thing and not being shy about it.

Because, you know, one thing that I've noticed in Montana is, like, white people are super proud of owning land, or like, claiming this land or something like that. And I think that in the same way, you know, communities of color can also embrace the land that they're on and understand, you know, how to respect and honor that space and like, be there and participate in it and, and be a part of that in different ways. Because I think, you know, in, in every level, the community benefits to having more representation outside, like, whether it's voting for water rights, you know, like, debt, you know, statistically speaking, a lot of communities like don't even vote on Montana's land and public water issues, because they don't know what's going on. They're not out there, you know, why should they care? Why should we care?

 Like what, you know, I didn't vote about water rights, because I didn't know about it, honestly, you know, I just didn't. Because in Maryland, we're fighting like the city, and it's very different than, like, where the water is coming from, from indigenous places and things like that. And so, I think the more people that we can get involved, though, and the more acceptance there are two different people being out in the same spaces as us, the greater community and all the state in the country, like at the whole world benefits, because it's, you know, it's like, if you truly want a space to be for everyone, then everyone should be able to be there. And, and participate and then, therefore, making a difference and yeah, in like, in every little way. 

Elijah:

Yeah, get us outside, get us outside, get more of us outside-- that Country Club you're talking about that'd be dope, because I never heard of Country Club that's  nice for me, you know? That'd be dope. 

Um, but I think I mean, you talk about growth, I don't know exactly what growth looks like yet. For me, I just want there to feel like we can do more of us can do art out here. You know what I mean and be accepted and understand because I think one of the issues that I've run into in creating art out here is that I've been creating it for people that don't look like me and that are having a hard time understanding what the heck I'm even saying. They're like, I empathize. Like, do you? Do you know what's going on? And I feel like usually not, you know what I mean? 

I see tears when I'm like, I don't know what those tears are for. Because I have to keep going through this every single day. You know, and so figuring out how to have a dialogue about the art that is happening like continuing to put artists at the forefront of because I think often artists don't look at, and maybe this is just the artist and me complaining but is not being thought of like last, you know what I mean? It's like, Oh, we need music, or we need a piece to be drawn like a poster. Let's get an artist to do something. And yeah, I just want there to be more of us at the front. That's really all representation is like what I'm fighting for every single day. So yeah.

Ash:

I mean, I think as far as what I hope for from my art and stuff, I mean, I kind of want to just force people into a situation of uncomfortability by being here with me as I am right now. You know, like on my record that I have coming up, I have a lot of songs. I mean, it's essentially like a scrapbook of my, you know, life before transition. And pretty much everything that's hurt or been wonderful since then. And most of the time, it's both. And so it's like, but having to force people to recognize that like, okay, like so this one song talks about, like how it was really tough to be indigenous in North Dakota for a long time and having to face like, you know, constant slurs. And, you know, but then I shift gears, and I'm like, Okay, well, we'll sing a song about just like regular old heartbreak and, you know, like, in, but have still like tinges of who I am peppered throughout. And using as much as I can to make people uncomfortable in that, and forcing them to recognize that uncomfortability within themselves as part of what they go through. And having to identify with certain parts of what I'm saying, but noticing the disparity as well. 

And I think that I do that in my solo music, but I think I even do that more so with my other band FUULS. You know, because like, in, in talking about a lot of representation. And a lot of, you know, especially up here in Montana, like, it's a sensitive issue for me because of how insanely bad indigenous people have been treated and still are treated. You know, I don't think that there's ever really been much of a fair shake on anything. And so I mean, you know, to have to sing about something, or to talk about something, there is very little that, you know, myself as an indigenous person can talk about without a being tinge, but at least a flavor of darkness or hurt, you know. And so I try to make that as approachable as I can while also still maintaining the uncomfortability.

 I mean, when I sing about, you know, certain things are screaming about certain things, like I try to make that if it's, if it's, especially if it's an anger of like, you know, indigenous rage or, or deep, you know, heart-throbbing, you know, sadness, I still try to make it as safe a place as possible, to observe those emotions. And, you know, like, when we've played on stage or done anything else, like, we've wanted to keep that mentality of having people feel uncomfortable, but have everything be approachable enough for them to feel safe while being in that slot. You know, kind of playing out, I don't know, some kind of weird therapy or something, but like, you know, I want people to notice things and to feel comfortable being uncomfortable with what they don't know, or with things that they don't feel like they're able to express. 

Yeah, I mean, I have an album coming out next week, I think, you know, that was completely self-produced and, like, mixed and recorded and everything by me. And I've been working on trying specifically to target other bipoc artists and Missoula to record them for little next to nothing as I can. And, and trying to make that more of availability and more of a service that's, like we're like, like a ledger was saying about representation. I'm a firm believer in the fact that, like, there has not been near enough color, in music, especially up here. How can we help with that? Especially in Missoula, I think the first place to start would be to acknowledge lack of experience. 

I think that's one of the main problems and what actually ends up being causation of people’s, I guess we'll say accidental racism is not acknowledging the fact that they don't know how to receive color, or that they don't have enough experience with color, and therefore have a mild or light, fear of it, which is totally, you know, something to be understood. And, I mean, it's, it's inherent in everyone, like if you don't have experience with something, you probably, you know, will have mild intimidation from it. 

And then that's okay. But if it's, if it goes unacknowledged, it's going to become a deeper issue. And because an ego plays into it, and there's a lot of other things, and culture and whatever and the assumption of that is what, you know, jostles people's feathers around and then, and then you end up with a larger problem. Because someone who, you know, doesn't know how to backstep and admit that they were wrong, to begin with, doubles down on their take, and then it becomes a really bad thing. So I think that like acknowledging the step of saying, like, Yeah, I don't know how to react to this, and I should maybe just make room for it, and acknowledge that, like, I don't get it like it. And but I want to, you know, and, and having that positive first step take of being like, ‘I don't understand you, I don't understand your culture, I don't understand where you're coming from, and I don't know that I will, per se, but I'm gonna do my best. And I'm gonna make room for you, you know, as much as I can, and how I understand it. And then, for anything else, I'll ask questions.’

 And I do that. And I try to help that because I think that music is the most evocative place to be able to communicate, understanding. You know, I, myself, have kind of grown up with a pretty, I'd say, kind of backward upbringing in a lot of ways. And it's, it's little next to impossible to really communicate the nuances of how I grew up. But in music, I feel like it's the closest place that I can show how that felt to grow up that way. And to communicate that experience and make it accessible to others. And I think that that's, you know, what I want for pretty much all, you know, bipoc artists is to help them communicate their experience and communicate their culture. 

And then also, you know, for that representation to also be an empowerment of who they are, on just an individual level, but to also let that be empowering for all of us. Because there's just not enough color up here in Montana.

Alex:

Yeah, that's so good, Ash. Like, I feel like, like, what you were saying about, like, being able to communicate experiences through music, is really similar to being able to communicate experiences through the outdoors. And like that intersection that may be there, through two very different things. But like, the want to be able to communicate our intersections of life through something that is kind of like external to people. Like, you know, music, the outdoors like? The outdoors is there. Music is there. How can we share that with each other to build a community? So, I can relate in a different way to what you're saying there.

Elijah:

Yeah, and I think I'm on a similar level, like with this whole music wave, you know, like thinking about the fact the, that I want to, I mean, be a face in Montana, that people are like, Wow, he made music and Montana, of all places, what is, what is he doing out there? 

Now, I mean, I'm not really sure. But I'm happy to be here. And I want to be a face that people can be like, Oh, if he could do it in Montana, then I can do it in Montana. Because I know that something my parents and my family, just all of my family is thinking about, they're like, you're going to Montana, you say, Okay, I'm gonna do everything I can to do so. But that also has, I think part of that has driven me to want to be at the front so that people can see, like, you know, if you if he could do it, then I could do it, you know? And yeah, just constantly pushing that forward. And yeah, I really enjoy the fact you said you, created like a record label or a place to produce in, in Missoula?

That's Yeah, yeah, it's been, it's been a long time to be able to do something like that. And it's kind of undefined on what I like to do with it so far. And I'd like to be able to, like, partner with other people, and maybe make this thing grow a little bit more as far as like, possible distribution or partnership, or whatever else. But for now, it's just recording and mixing and producing.

Can I ask you, can I  ask questions too?  I'm going to ask a question. 

And that's what I learned, I mean, just producing  because you said he produced this upcoming album yourself. Like you, you're the one who recorded and mixed everything. Was there anything that you learned in the process that you feel would be valuable because I'm trying to produce, like, in my own room? Like, right, yeah. So that'd be Yeah, I'm curious.

Ash:

Yeah. I mean, I learned a lot of how not to do things, you know, like I a lot of it was recorded stream of consciousness and then other things were recorded pretty much like with as much of what I had an idea in mind. So the recording process for each song was, initially, very different. I mean, aside from the understanding that like things are plugged in, and you have the microphone somewhere, but like, but the process of getting to that point was a lot different. And I probably would have taken a little bit more of a streamlined effect. And I think I know how to do that, now. And I know how to, like not get bogged down in some of the ornamentations and, and like, just like rushing through things, too. And then like doing more work for myself later on trying to fix it. But yeah, I mean, those are the kind of things that I learned so far, amongst a lot of other things. But I think that's like the biggest thing that I noticed.

Elijah:

Thank you, thank you for sharing that. Right now, I'm led by this phrase. And it goes, it's fearless revolutionary optimism. And it's hard to go with all the time. But I think I enjoy it a lot. And that is largely what I mean. That's what's guiding me right now because there is so much sadness and despair in the world, which is not just very grand like I understand it, and I feel it as well. But I also want there to feel like there's hope for a better at some point. 

So I don't know when I really want-- But I do intend on creating art that is, yeah, feels like optimistic because I do believe that it can get better. And while right now it's tough as shiz-nits. It is going in my head. At least I can see I can. I feel like I can see a better future. And I want people that look like me to understand like, yo, it can happen, it can happen if you if he can see it, I can see it, you know, and so that that's a lot of what I am leading with.Yeah.

Ash:

Yeah, I mean, there's, it's, I think each song is different. So I mean, it's kind of hard to say. But I'd say the overarching narrative is kind of similar to what Elijah was saying. 

James Baldwin had a really great way of putting it, or he said that you know, in a very heartbreaking interview, he said that you know, it's, it's kind of our job to maintain being both like a consistent optimist as well as a consistent pessimist. And there's not really much way to get past either one. Because you have to fully address the problem, as well as being fully hopeful that things can change. And I, I kind of take that in my music as much as I can, you know, is feeling the breadth of that, you know, that just that cosmic overture of just being like, you know, everything is going to be chaotic, and I'll never really like meet up with your expectations, but it is always destined to change, for better or worse. And so, you know, hopefully, for the better. 

And, you know, I mean, I’ll turn that absurd fight, you know, till I die. So I hope that other people feel that as well, as, you know, no matter how bleak, it may look, and full acknowledgment, you know, things can change and will change. And we'll get there together.

Alex:

I do a lot of photography, and I'm focused on a lot of that representation. And I've changed a lot of my like-- even the clients that I'm taking in the stories that I'm trying to depict out to people is just the strength and representation and what that can mean for a person or a community. And I think that that's really, you know, like, one image can tell, you know, 1,000 words type of thing. And, and I think it really can, and I think in minuscule ways, it makes huge differences. 

Like, you know, I took a lot of people out rafting this past summer and to see, you know, people of color sitting there in the rower seat, like actually rowing down this river was powerful to take the image, but I think afterward to see it and to see, like what that could mean for someone that has never thought that that could be, you know, a place that they could sit and do and learn, like, think there's a lot of power in that. And that's like one way I think in the arts that I want to participate in and to change what representation means in imagery, and how one story can like, like how music can like, intersect with so many different people's lives, even though it's coming from like the artist's standpoint in life like it's so relatable to everybody else, just through the power of that music. I think images can do something you know in a different way but also be powerful. 

And going to 2020 and 2021. Like, yeah, the pandemic has definitely changed things. I think, first and foremost, just acknowledging that you know, it's difficult for black and brown people to access health care, access to things that are simple to things. You know, like, for instance, like, my parents don't speak English. So like, having to explain to them how to get a COVID shot, or like what these new regulations mean, for them and their communities, has been really difficult to see and experience, especially because I'm really far away.

 But for the program, it's the same, you know?  My priority is to ensure that our participants in the community that we have are safe. And it's a really hard consideration to think like, Okay, let's do this big gathering of people. Because it's important to have that community, but how do we do that in a way that's going to ensure that we can be safe and we can protect one another. And that is, like really ensuring that none of us gets sick, and you're taking those measures. And that's something I've never had to do. But I think that it also adds this level of like, care that, you know, I think is really beautiful, like to care for someone else in your community in a way that you're thinking in almost like a global perspective because COVID is everywhere. And like, right here, also, it's also like here in Missoula, Montana, and then here, right here, you know, and, and, you know, just wanting to think about, like, the humanity of each person and making sure that their health is a priority for our program and, and their well being.

Elijah: 

Yeah, I think on top of that, like just understanding that we are here to take care of one another, you know, I mean, as much as the world is telling us to be alone, we also have to learn how to take care of one another. And in the past, it feels like we weren't really, and I think that's largely due to the systems in place being like, yep, you gotta do it for you, and get it off for you. And you only because you are the only one that matters is like, Yeah, I know, I matter. But the people around me matter, as well. And I mean, their safeties are for sure. Something that I think is, hopefully, something that we can continue to bring forth. Even once you know all of the vaccines and whatnot. I am wary of them, but I understand that I trust what they are doing for the people. And for a short-term solution. Yes, for a long-term solution, we still got a lot of work to do. And that is where I'll stop.

Ash:

Yeah. I--I mean, it's such a complicated thing, right? Like, I mean, it doesn't. It hasn't worked out well for everyone. But it never really does. And I think that that's kind of the thing is that like, you know, for me personally, it's been really great in a lot of different ways, but really horrible and a lot of different ways. 

And in some of the ways that it's been amazing is that it's allowed me to make art consistently, I, you know, I'm a very working-class person and was, you know, working as just a cook in a kitchen, like very much struggling to make ends meet. You know, and still am, for the most part. But, you know, I don't have to worry about, you know, fighting for hours and feeling the consistent stress underneath my skin, of you know, whether or not I said the right thing to my boss, and if that's going to get me hours cut or hours added. 

Whether, you know, and then feeling like I'm not gonna get enough sleep, and then you know, just like the constant patterns of, or abusive behavior towards workers as well as, you know, people of color. Having that kind of immediately put on hold. And, you know, I really like that interruption of what the system has placed a lot of us in, in places of suspension and some of us that left us in places where we were able to relax for a second and for others that put us in immediate disparity. You know, so I think it's, it's, it was a total, you know, toss of a roll of the dice on how that managed to end up for people. 

But I know that for myself, it ended up helping a lot in a lot of ways, as horrible as all of this has been. I have created more than I ever have probably in the last I'd say like, close to four or five years, and have been able to feel how much of that life has been drained out of me. And then understanding and feeling so much more of what I've been fighting for this entire time. 

You know, I've been able to see my kids more I've been able to, you know, have actual rest and build relationships with people, I've been able to study and learn and do all these different things, while also at the same time being horrified about how our system and the breakdown of what it's been, has been consistently affecting people negatively and seeing just as much as the disparity and but seeing how interrupted it is at the same time, how easily interruptible it is. So, I mean, yeah, it's 2020. It was wild. It was it's, it's wild west in a way, you know, and so I mean, I don't know that there is like, really, any one way that someone can feel about it. I think it was just. It was the total chaos of the year.

*Much Love by Elijah Jalil Paz Fisher plays*

Noelle:

At the time we recorded this interview for this podcast, Ash Nataanii's album Exit Music for Exit Wounds was not out yet. But it is now on all streaming platforms. A ridiculously amazing album available for you to check out on all streaming platforms. Woo!

*Much Love by Elijah Jalil Paz Fisher plays*

SHORT VERSION:

transcript-

*Cheshire Cat, by Ash Nataanii plays* 

Introduction: 

You're listening to KBGA college radio at 89.9 Missoula, and we're teaming up with the Zoo-Town Arts Community Center to bring you Play it Forward. A live stream music series and podcast program curated to unite and uplift community artists and organizations in Missoula. Sponsored by Rockin Rudy's. Every last Friday of the month, we will partner with a different organization and host a local music live stream from the Zacc showroom with 70% of the proceeds going to that month's organization. And in conjunction with the live stream, KBGA will also run a podcast program on air featuring interviews with the folks behind the organization and the artists themselves. Holding dialogue amongst community organizers and creatives artists and activists on what community means to them, how they engage in their community and what they would like to see in their community. KBGA’s Elinor Smith interviews February's Play it Forward featured artists and the founder of Here Montana: an outdoor program in Missoula through Missoula Parks and Recreation that works to give the black, indigenous and people of color in our community access to outdoor recreation. Stay tuned for an invigorating discussion on the importance of racial representation. And not just on the macro level, but on the micro level right here in Missoula.

 *Cheshire Cat by Ash Nataanii continues*

Ash:

Yeah, my name is Ash Nataanii Cornelius. My pronouns are she/her they/them, I'm fine with. Yeah, I'm just a working class musician in Missoula. Kind of traveled all over the U.S. doing different things and have a unique perspective on just the indigenous experience of being brown in America. And I use that pretty much as the main palate for all of my music.

Elijah:

My name is Elijah Jalill Paz Fisher; I should have put that in, I should have renamed myself. But yeah, that's, that's my whole name. He/him/his are my pronouns, and I am getting my MFA in acting at the University of Montana. But I also make music and I just, as I brand myself as a social justice artist, because of reasons I'm sure we'll talk about in this whole thing. But I'm in Missoula for the time being, and I came from California, then Portland and now I am here.

Alex:

Yes, my name is Alex Kim. And my pronouns are he/him/his, and I work at a couple different places. I work in Power Montana, doing racial justice work, as well as the YWCA, and then I work at Missoula City Parks and Rec where I created and facilitated an outdoor group for the BIPOC community in Missoula: which is for black indigenous people of color. Yeah, so Here Montana's main purpose is to increase access, and representation of our back indigenous people of color in our community, to outdoor recreation and the outdoors. And how that kind of got started is I've worked in the outdoor industry for a long time, and I recognize that the outdoors can be like, whatever space that people want it to be. But you know, that space is historically very limited for people of color, who just, you know, whether it be socio-economics or culture, or, you know, just- just have not been able to access that. 

And so, we created a program where we can get people outside and build a community around that. And so therefore, we'd be increasing access to the outdoors, increasing the broader community of outdoor recreation. And hopefully, by doing all of that we can build a better understanding of what equity means, and what equality can be. Because especially right now, like, you know, social media, we see a lot of people thriving, and finding healing in the outdoors. And yet, we forget that like, you know, where we are historically, like we sit on Salish Kootenai land and it's important that our indigenous communities are able to access that land as well as our communities that are not able to access them due to just access of information or culture again-- because like, for myself, I grew up in Maryland, so like skiing, rafting, cross country skiing, you know, climbing, like none of that was around. I grew up in a city, it's like, I didn't know really even what it was honestly. And then I came out here, and I realized that, yeah, it's like dominant culture. Like, that's not a culture that I grew up in. And so I have no idea how to find out about that. And then as an adult, it's even harder to find a community, because community is often how we introduce ourselves to these sorts of things. 

Like even in the arts, I do photography. And, you know, that's one way that, you know, you can like meet random people, but I think community is super important. And so that's another aspect of kind of how and why we started. But our like, proper mission and vision is: our mission is to engage, empower and elevate the BIPOC communities to spend time outside in a safe and informed way, thereby building a BIPOC outdoor community and develop outdoor leaders within that community. And the reason that's important as well is because like, we don't see a lot of leadership in-- we don't see a lot of representation in leadership or in marketing. And I think that's crucial. Like we use social media every day, or I do at least and it's nice to be able to see, you know, folks of different backgrounds and ethnicities doing things that I want to do. Because that, you know, it perpetuates my own imagination, and it encourages me to get out and do things. And then our vision is to increase BIPOC representation among leadership and participation in outdoor communities to improve BIPOC access to opportunities for connection, fun and healing and to explore what nature has to provide.

Elijah

I mean, representation seems like a great place to begin. You know, like, that's the beginning place of where we-- representation in, like leadership. And actually, Alex, I thought of you yesterday, when we had a BSU meeting. The ASUM, sent out like in an email about the ice rink being available to student groups to, you know, reserve, and I brought it up to the BSU members. 

They were  like, “we don't ice-skate.” I was like, wait, I don't really ice-skate either, but I'd be down to do it with y’all. You know what I mean? It's terrifying, and I don't want to fall either. But like, I'd be down to fall on ice with y'all. 

And, yeah, I think if we were able to, you know, have a community that goes outside-- before Here Montana, I wasn't even thinking about skiing. But now, I'm planning on going skiing, which is something that's happening like next Saturday, cross country skiing, which is different than downhill slope skiing, I've heard. So you know, it's terrifying, but that having that leadership, and yeah, just representation in the community is at least where I start.

 Like the music-- I released an album in September, and it's not music at all that I listened to growing up, because I worked with a bluegrass musician. And I was like, ‘what is bluegrass?’ but we came together and made this thing that, that I mean, just like, bounces between genres of like, folk and country and bluegrass and r&b and a bunch of other things that, I think is a way to, like, take back the genres that started most often within the, you know, the BIPOC communities. So representation. Yeah.

Alex:

Definitely. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just building community. Especially in a place where like, community feels really dispersed.  Even more so now, with the pandemic, and just having to, yeah, just like not being able to see one another, like, not walking around or whatever as often. And so I think the biggest thing that it's doing is just creating a community of people like--

If I could make a country club for communities of color, I would do that. But white people have that as well for their communities. And I think that, like, you know, although those places may seem very open to diversity and things like that, I think that when we don't acknowledge our race and our ethnicity and our cultures and our differences, you know, we kind of just force everybody down like this binary road where we're all just trailing on one little footstep that someone left. And that's the only way. That was the only direction we could go. And I think for here, Montana, it's to break those kind of barriers so that people really do see that, that they can be here and do things that they want to do and explore and find peace.

 And like that's where I find like the intersection of music for myself because I am not at all musically talented. But I'm a consumer of music. And I've just a side note have always been a fan of Ash’s music since like way back. And it's been really cool to see her like *explosion noise* and like now she's dropping an album next week that's sick. And like, It’s  really cool to hear that, you know?

I think it just expands everyone's idea of like, who can be where and who can do what, you know what I mean? Like, we can do anything we want to do. But if we don't see that, in our own communities on a micro level, it makes a huge difference. Because it's like, yes, like, I see, you know, like, like Korean Americans who make it big, like they're in Hollywood, you know, you see them, you know, in K-pop, and things like that. But that's like, macro level, like, big time, like, you know, they're the few that are out there. But on a micro community level, like, we really don't see that as often. You know, what I mean? 

Like, with Elijah making, you know, like music with bluegrass, like, That's such a beautiful intersection, like, especially in Montana, like, how did that even come about? You know, and to see it on that micro level, like in your community, I think makes a greater impact to--

 I mean, I think, like, on a Yeah, I think on a big scale, like, obviously, hollywood impacts me to an extent, you know, like, I want to be fly and like, know what's going on. But on a community, like myself as an individual, like, I want to see my own community thrive, and the people that I know, in my community thriving, because that makes more of a difference to me, because like, I could probably walk over to like, meet, you know, Ash, and Elijah, and, you know, you and whoever, like, right down the road, you know, and I think knowing that Here Montana is a program and a resource for people to find community, like, here and not, you know, like, somewhere really far away it, it can make a difference in that way.

 Much like the music scene, like, you know, there's like huge big bands and they tour around, but like, nothing beats like local music, or like sitting in someone's garage listening to, like, music is just something about being in this community that gives people a connection, I guess. 

Yeah, I think a big vision is just seeing more representation, seeing brown people and black people and Asian people and Latin-X people, anybody and everybody just outside doing things. And it's, and maybe that goes with, like the demographics of growth changing, you know. And we have a lot of things in Missoula, that are going on, like the housing crisis, and like, people can't find homes. And so there are a lot of external factors that make it even more difficult to be outdoors and even more difficult to like, figure out all the logistics of even getting outside. 

And so I think, you know, starting with empowering folks to feel confident in being outside and like, just getting out there and doing their thing and not being shy about it. Because,

you know, one thing that I've noticed in Montana is, like, white people are super proud of owning land, or like, claiming to this land or something like that. And I think that in the same way, you know, communities of color can also embrace the land that they're on and understand, you know, how to respect and honor that space and like, be there and participate in it and, and be a part of that in different ways. 

Because I think, you know, in every level, the community benefits to have more representation outside. Like, whether it's voting for water rights, you know, like, debt--

 You know, statistically speaking, a lot of communities of color don't even vote on Montana's land and public water issues, because they don't know what's going on. They're not out there, you know, why should they care? Why should we care? Like what, you know, I didn't vote about water rights, because I didn't know about it, honestly. You know, I just didn't, because in Maryland, like we're fighting like the city, it's very different than, like, where the water is coming from, from indigenous places and things like that. And so, I think the more people that we can get involved, and the more acceptance there are of different people being out in the same spaces as us, the greater community, the state, the country, like the whole world benefits. Because it's, you know, it's like, if you truly want the space to be for everyone, then everyone should be able to be there and, and participate and then therefore make a difference  in like, in every little way. 

Elijah:

Yeah, get us outside, get us outside, give more of us outside. That Country Club you're talking about that'd be dope, because I never heard of country club that’s for me, you know, that'd be dope. But I think I mean, you're talking about growth. I don't know exactly what growth looks like yet. For me. I just want there to feel like more of us can do art out here. You know what I mean?

And be accepted and understood because I think one of the issues that I've run into in creating art out here is that I've been creating it for people that don't look like me and that are having a hard time understanding what the heck I'm even saying.

They’re like “I empathize.” Like, do you? Do you know what's going on? 

And I feel like usually not, you know what I mean? I, I see tears, but I'm like, I don't know what those tears are for, because I have to keep going through this every single day, you know. And so figuring out how to have dialogue about the art that is happening, like continuing to put artists at the forefront. Because I think often artists aren't looked at, and maybe this is just the artist and me complaining, but are thought of like, last, you know what I mean? 

It's like, “Oh, we need music!” or “We need a piece to be drawn like a poster, let's get an artist to do something.”

 And yeah, I just want there to be more of us at the front. That's really all representation is like, what I'm fighting for every single day.

Ash:

Yeah, I mean, I think as far as, like what I hope for, from my art and stuff;  I mean, I kind of want to just force people into a situation of uncomfortability by being here with me as I am right now. 

Um, you know, like, on my record that I have coming up, I have a lot of songs-- I mean, it's essentially like a scrapbook of my, you know, life before transition. And pretty much everything that's hurt, or been wonderful since then. And most of the time, it's both. And so it's having to force people to recognize that like, okay, so this one song talks about, like, how it was really tough to be indigenous in North Dakota for a long time and having to face like, you know, constant slurs. But then I shift gears and I'm like, Okay, well, we'll sing a song about just like regular old heartbreak and, you know, but have still like, tinges of what I'm-- who I am peppered throughout. And using as much as I can to make people uncomfortable in that, in forcing them to recognize that uncomfortability within themselves as part of what they go through. And having them self-identify with certain parts of what I'm saying, but noticing the disparity as well.

 And I think that I do that in my solo music, but I think I even do that more so with my other band, FUULS. You know, because like, in, in talking about a lot of representation. Especially up here in Montana, like, it's a sensitive issue for me, because of how insanely bad indigenous people have been treated and still are treated. You know, I don't think that there's ever really been much of a fair shake on anything. And so I mean, you know, to have to sing about something, or to talk about something, there is very little that, you know, myself as an indigenous person can talk about without it being tinged with at least a flavor of darkness or hurt, you know. And so I try to make that as approachable as I can, while also still maintaining the uncomfortability. 

I mean, when I sing about, you know, certain things or scream about certain things, like I try to make that-- especially if it's an anger of like, you know, indigenous rage or, or deep, you know, heart throbbing  sadness I still try to make it as safe a place as possible, to observe those emotions. When we've played on stage or done anything else, like, we've wanted to keep that mentality of having people feel uncomfortable, but have everything be approachable enough for them to feel safe while being in that spot. You know, kind of playing out, I don't know, some kind of weird therapy or something. But like, you know, I want people to notice things and to feel comfortable being uncomfortable with what they don't know. Or with things that they don't feel like they're able to express.

Elijah:

Right now, I'm led by this phrase. And it goes: it's fearless revolutionary optimism. And it's hard to go with all the time. But I think I enjoy it a lot and that is largely what-- I mean that's what's guiding me right now. Because there is so much sadness and despair in the world, which is like I understand it, and I feel it as well. But I also want there to feel like there's hope for a better at some point.

 I don't know when, I really don’t. But I do intend on creating art that is, yeah, feels like optimistic because I do believe that it can get better. And while right now it's tough as shiz-nits. It is going, in my head at least, I can see a better future. And I want people that look like me to understand like--

 Yo, it can happen, it can happen. If he can see it, I can see it, you know. And so that that's a lot of what I am leading with. Yeah.

Elinor:

Yeah, Ash, any themes or representations you want people to kind of think about or ruminate on when they listen to your music?

Ash:

Always. But, yeah, I mean, there's, it's, I think each song is different. So I mean, it's kind of hard to say. But I'd say the overarching narrative is kind of similar to what Elijah was saying. 

James Baldwin, had a really great way of putting it, or he said that, you know, in a very heartbreaking interview, he said that, you know, it's kind of our job to maintain being both like a consistent optimist as well as a consistent pessimist. And there's not really much way to get past either one. Because you have to fully address the problem, as well as being fully hopeful that things can change. 

And I, I kind of take that in my music as much as I can, you know, feeling the breadth of that, you know, that just that cosmic Overture of just being like, you know, everything is going to be chaotic, and it will never really like meet up with your expectations, but it is always destined to change, for better or worse. And so, you know, hopefully, for the better, and, you know, I, I mean, turn that absurd fight, you know, until I die, so I hope that other people feel that as well, as, you know, no matter how bleak, it may look, and full acknowledgement, you know, things things can change, and will change. And we'll get there together.

Alex:

I do a lot of photography, and I'm focused on a lot of that representation. And I've changed a lot of my-- even like the clients that I'm taking it in the stories that I'm trying to depict out to people is just the, the strength and representation and what that can mean for a person or a community. And I think that that's really, you know, like, one image can tell, you know, 1,000 words type of thing. And, and I think it really can, and I think in very miniscule ways, it makes huge differences. Like, you know, I took a lot of people out rafting this past summer, and to see, you know, people of color sitting there in the rower seat, like actually rowing down this river was powerful to take the image, but I think afterwards to see it, and to see, like what that could mean for someone that has never thought that that could be, you know, a place that they could sit and do and learn, like, think there's a lot of power in that. And I that's like one way, I think in art that I want to participate in, and to change what representation means in imagery, and how one story can like--

 like how music can like, intersect with so many different people's lives, even though it's coming from like the artists standpoint in life, like it's so relatable to everybody else, just through the power of that music. I think images can do something, you know, in a different way, but also be powerful.

 And going to 2020 and 2021. Like, yeah, the pandemic has definitely changed things. I think, first and foremost, just acknowledging that, you know, it's difficult for black and brown people to access health care. Access to things that-- You know, like, for instance, like my parents don't speak English. So like, having to explain to them how to get a COVID shot or like what these new regulations mean for them and their communities has been really difficult to see and experience, especially because I'm really far away. 

But for the program, it's the same, you know, my priority is to ensure that our participants and the community that we have is safe. And it's a really hard consideration to think like, Okay, let's do this big gathering of people. Because it's important to have that community but how do we do that in a way that's going to ensure that we can be safe and we can protect one another and that is like really ensuring that none of us gets sick and, you know, taking those measures and that's something I've never had to do. But I think that it also adds this level of like, care that, you know, I think is really beautiful, like to care for someone else in your community in a way that you're thinking in almost like a global perspective.

Elinor:

Yeah, definitely. Um, I was kind of wondering kind of the role of leadership obviously is so, so important, like crucial for BIPOC representation in Montana, and, like, around the country. And I was just wondering what you guys think leadership and kind of innovation in both the outdoor communities and in the music community in Montana would look like and how people can kind of strive to take those roles moving on in the future?

Ash:

I would say that's kind of a two part thing. Because there are plenty of people who are of color who are definitely leaders who exist here already, who also have a really powerful voice. I'd say more so the question is, like: when is it that white people are going to understand that they need to make the room for colored leadership?

 It's not necessarily up to us to have to force our way in and fight into every single place that we can inhabit. It needs to be created for us, by our allies, and by the people who actually care and are learning what color means and what their interaction with color is supposed to be. And how we all inhabit the same place and, and basically come together in that. 

Yeah, because I mean, I like I've had to, I've had to face that through multiple, multiple places in my life where I've been put in situations where someone's challenged me and said, like:

 “you know, you're, you're so close to being a leader, you're so influential and stuff, If only you could like just buckle down and like press a little bit harder,” 

Not realizing that what they were telling me was always going to be a pipe dream, because they only respected whiteness. And as a person of color, who saw that consistently, I believed what they said when I was younger. But the older I got, the more I realized that that benchmark was impossible to meet, because they wouldn't see past my color. And it didn't matter how influential I was, it didn't matter how powerful my voice was, it didn't matter whether I brought them tears, it didn't matter whether I shook them into the grave. It never was going to be enough unless they were going to make the room for me unless they're going to understand what their position was in order to be led. 

White has to take the backseat in a lot of circumstances in order for you know, colored leadership to exist. We're here, we're around. It's it's you know, I think the question has less to do with us as much as it has to do with y'all.

*Much Love by Elijah Jalil Paz Fisher plays*

Narrator:

At the time we recorded this interview for this podcast, Ash Nataanii’s album Exit Music for Exit Wounds was not out yet. But it is now. On all streaming platforms. A ridiculously amazing album available for you to check out on all streaming platforms. Whoo!

*Much Love by Elijah Jalil Paz Fisher plays*

Podcast produced by Elinor Smith